trinityamps.com

Hey guys, Stephen was nice enough to introduce me to a guy in Ottawa who actually let me hear his Trinity 18 watt TMB build. Nice finish, sounded ok, but it didn't quite have the jangle and bite I thought it would.

1) Maybe it's because the amp was only a week or so old (not broken in)
2) It could be the speakers in the cabinet used an older (Marshall cab w 4 X G12's)

If you guys wouldn't mind checking out this you tube clip:

— listen to the sound of the TV Jones Classics - especially the midway point—to the end of the clip. THIS is the tone I lust after—almost. It's very much Malcolm Young's tone. It's spanky, there's some jangle and growl to it — but not quite enough. I sent the guy a message, asking him what amp he ran it through, but he hasn't replied yet.

I'd like to try and get this tone with a Trinity - with more bite, and if I have to use a tube screamer, or some kind of tube based pre-amp boost pedal to get it, or different pickups etc, I'll do it.

Any recommendations? Thanks.

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—Disco Sucks—

That sounds more like some kind of a Voxish amp than a Marshall 18W. It has more jangle than Marshall grind. I think you're looking for something along the lines of a Trinity TC-15. A TC-15 will nail that sound IMO.

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

Hey Maltone - If you're up for a couple hours in the car, why don't you come out to my studio in Trenton. Between my Trinitys and a couple of Stephen's protos, I can have all of Stephen's amps there, I've got a pile of cabs and guitars, and you can hear them all side-by-side...

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Brent Bodrug
Producer-Engineer/Songwriter

www.slyfichapel.com

Clip!? Clip?...I don't see no steenking clip!
Stew

Sorry, you can't include a URL in your first post - and I forgot to post the 2nd time and include the clip.

Here's 3 clips for reference. They're all very different amps obviously, but these are good examples of the articulation I'd love to find in an 18 - but through a gretsch.

TV Jones Classics in a Duesenberg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5afO1axgVSE
Bare with this one, it's very basic, but it's got the "Gretsch" grind, just not enough bite and jangle, kind of muddy.

Vox and a Tele: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4elHVS8 ... re=related
(the clarity and articulation is there, but not quite enough bite or mid-range - but close)

Peter Stroud's 65 London Soho: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc3-CiPe ... re=related
(absolutely amazing tone on this amp all around, not sure if you can mod a trinity to do this, or get some of these tones with a stock Trinity 18, or 15 - this amp blows my mind!)

So basically, I want that Gretsch growl, with fantastic articulation - but with more bite, body. Am I getting closer?

Thanks again guys.

_________________
—Disco Sucks—

Well, thank you very much for the invitation, I may take you up on that. My dad lives in Trawna, so maybe in the spring I could stop by. That's a really nice gesture, and I'd be really grateful.

I'm asking so many questions, and comparing amps that are different relentlessly. It's because I really don't know much - I only like what I hear. But the fact of the matter is, I like parts of each amp. The real deal from what I've heard so far - is anything by 65 Amps.

That 65 - London Head alone is $2,495 U.S.! Ouch. Much too professional for the likes of my limited playing ability, but, it has "that sound" and more. I'm wondering if the answer is getting an 18 from Stephen, and modding it with a different rectifier tube - like an EZ81, or whatever to get closer to that sound.

If you or someone here said, "to get into that tonal arena - retention of clarity and articulation but with crunch bite, I'd go with an 18, and mod this or that", I'd do it. What do you think?

Again, thanks.

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—Disco Sucks—

There are so many variables . You can brighten up the amp with Tung-Sol 12AX7s, use Alnico speakers, change the guitar pick-up.
It already has an EZ81 rectifier so maybe even SS rectifier etc.

So many possibilites - so little time but I think listening to one through different speakers / guitar would convince you.

Go and check out this thread: viewtopic.php?t=1273&highlight=

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Stephen
Web: www.trinityamps.com. Facebook: facebook.com/trinityamps. Twitter: @trinityamps

You my friend are looking for a Trinity TC-15..

Remember TV Jones pickups have a unique tone to them as well. I have two sets and they are very clear and add to the chimy sound.

But I think the TC 15 will get you the tone you want. As a guy who has both a Trinty 18, and a TC15, the chimy tone you hear on the clips you linked to is much more TC15'ish than the 18.

AJC

Thank you both for the guidance and info + links. I absolutely LOVED that TC-15 with the Tone Tubby Alnico. - Definitely articulate, not muddy.

Coco: you said,



This is the 18 you're referring to I guess? That's what's difficult for me, ajcoholic says it's the TC-15 I'm looking for, and I must admit, I am darn partial to Vox chime and jangle, but I've always found they lack a certain punch.

On the other hand, the 18 seems to have more grit - which is why I can't quite understand an amp like the London Soho by 65 amps. It's almost a MarVox, if there is such a thing?

I REALLY love the TC-15 DIRTY clip with the Tone Tubby Alnico, AND the
18 Watt v6 - 6V6 Dirty Tone Tubby Alnico equally. I think I'd like them both in a single cabinet - the perfect balance of grit and jangle. Or copy exactly what the Soho combo has: An Alnico blue, and a G12H 30.

This is exactly the setup I'd have:
• Gretsch jet, (strings 11's or 12's + wound G.
• TV Jones classics
• A single 2 X 12 with an Alnico blue and a G12H 30
• A trinity 18 or TC-15?

I heard an AC 15 in a music store about a year ago - a newer one. And I really did like the articulation it had, but it lacked punch. The mid range was a little weak. As much as I loved the tone overall, I thought, hmm, I don't see it having "Growl".

If you ran a tube based pre-amp before the TC-15, would that help beef up the mids? Or am I off on something else completely here? Should I just stick with an 18 with Coco's suggestions?

_________________
—Disco Sucks—

Hey Maltone, glad you liked the clips - had a lot of fun doing them... Yup, TC with TTA's - awesome. It was after doing those clips with Stephen's cab that I had him build me a cab with two TTA's to match my TC-15.

I think what Stephen is saying is that by experimenting with different tubes, different speakers, different guitars/pickups you can radically alter the tone of ANY amp. I think the speaker test clips are a testament to that - the guitar and amp setting didn't change in any of those - only the change in speaker accounts for those drastically different tones! Imagine how much it'll change when you start trying out different guitars, different tubes, etc. Actually if you look through the clips section, there's a few threads where I kept the amp settings the same and swapped out different guitars...

I own an AC30 and I own a TC-15. To my ears, they're very different amps. Certainly they have a similar "essence", but I think they're totally different things. I wouldn't let your experience with an AC15 influence how you perceive the TC. I would personally describe the TC as being very chimey and having a lot of punch - especially when paired with the TTA's. IMO, the TC is a little bit Vox, but more Matchless, and a whole lot of its own thing - special amp I think...

Also keep in mind that when I did those clips, I didn't have time to show off all the different shades of dirty tone the TC has - that clip is just one of many tones in there. I think there's enough grind in the TC to keep any Marshall lover happy... and then throw pedals into the mix and it'll do pretty much anything you'd want...

I'm with AJC - I think you'd be more than happy with a TC-15 and a 2x12 with TTA's. And I'll offer it again - hop in the car and head out to Trenton because I have that exact setup in my studio if you'd like to try it out...

_________________
Brent Bodrug
Producer-Engineer/Songwriter

www.slyfichapel.com

Not sure which one he was refering to, t actually applies equally to both.

+1 However, the TC-15 can deliver more growl than an AC 15. It's more like a 15W version of the Matchless DC 30.

Yes, that's pretty good description. The 65 London was designed by Dan Boule of 65 Amps, and he discussed a lot of his ideas on 18watt.com while he was designing it. So I know pretty well how the London works, but less about the Soho. Basically, the London is a tweaked classic/tremolo 18W, with an EF86 preamp channel, similar to the TC-15's. The Soho dispenses with the tremolo and has a higher gain preamp channel. With a few Marshallish component value changes, one could get a TC-15 to sound pretty close to the 65 Soho, although without 65's special "Booster" and "Bump" controls. You could however have the "Master Voltage" function, by installing a VRM.

There's no reason you couldn't have 6V6s on your Soho-tweaked TC-15, although I would be more inclined to stay with the EL84s.

That's a golden combination, combining chime with depth and punch. BTW Trinity also has a 2X12 which is similar in concept, with a Tone Tubby Alnico and a TT Ceramic.

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

I think you've swayed me onto the TC-15. I'll be ordering it from Stephen before the summer - i'm in the midst of a move, and the wife wouldn't quite understand an amp build at this point.

I'm firmly set on this amp. I don't think you can go wrong with anything Vox-Matchless-esque, and if there's any recommendations you guys can make along the way for a mod here or there, please let me know. I know it's next to impossible to get an exact tone most of the time, but a close approximation, and that amazing string separation, articulation is IT for me.

What's the difference between the TT's alnico setup and say a straight Celestion Alnico with a G12H 30?

_________________
—Disco Sucks—

If it's a TC-15 you're after, read over this post!! Great amp too!! viewtopic.php?t=1236

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Stephen
Web: www.trinityamps.com. Facebook: facebook.com/trinityamps. Twitter: @trinityamps

OK, if you wanted to voice a TC-15 more like a 65 Amps Soho, here's what you would do, referring to the schematic on www.trinityamps.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=859 :

C1 = 0.01uF
C2 = 1uF
C3 (180pF) removed
R7 = 820 ohms
C4 (25uF) remove, or replace with 2uF if you want more gain
R15 = 820 ohms
R18, R19 = 270k (increase to 330k or 470k for more power tube distortion)
R20, R22 = 8.2k
R25 = 2.2k (don't use the choke option)
Set the OT for 8k operation. 65 Amps use a custom 9k OT, so 8k is the closest we can get.

This will give you a 65 Amps style Vox meets Marshall meets Matchless tone, and you can tweak these values further to dial them in to exactly how you want the amp to sound. At this point it still has the Vox style tone stack, and you could optionally put these more Marshall-like component values into the tone stack if you wanted:

VR2 (treble) = 220k
C5 (treble) = 470pf
R34 (slope) = 33k
C6 (mid) = 0.01uF
R10 (mid) =15k
VR3 (bass) = 500k
Connect pins 2 & 3 of VR3 together.
Disconnect junction of C6 & R10 from Pin 2 (wiper) of VR3
Remove connection between VR3 Pin 1 and Ground
Connect junction of C6 and R10 to VR3 Pin 1 (so pin 1 path to ground is via R10)

_________________
Great tones come in small glass jars!

I don't have a cab with a Blue and a G12H30 in my studio, but what I can tell you is the TTA's are so much more detailed and efficient than every other speaker in my studio (including lots of Celestions, Fanes, and Jensen Alnicos). I think for the tone you're after, the TTA's would be incredible.

As for the TT "bomb" (ie one alnico, one ceramic) a lot of guys like it, but I prefer two TTA's - more focus and magic in there for me... VERY punchy and they bring out the detail and chime in the top end, very smooth bottom...

FWIW, when I'm using my TC, it's either plugged into my Mesa V30 cab (which sounds fantastic with the amp) or my Trinity 212 w/ TTA's.

Hope this helps. B

_________________
Brent Bodrug
Producer-Engineer/Songwriter

www.slyfichapel.com

I just listened to the clip you posted of Peter Stroud playing a 65 Londoner - www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKd5E9MCp-k - and it actually sounds closer to a TC-15 than I had thought. In this second clip - www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6VNlXmqK - its Marshally character can be heard more, but in both clips I can hear some PI clipping fizz, which tells me that they're using the Vox/Matchless 1.2k value for resistor for R7, so no need to change that one to 820 ohms, if you like that tone. Personally, I prefer the PI not to clip quite so much, since I think you lose some definition when that happens vs having the distortion coming more from the EL84s, like in a regular Marshall 18W.

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

Hey guys, thanks for even more info. The more you talk about those TT's I think it's exactly the way I think it should sound.

bgroup you said:

If that's the case, I'll stick with them - I do want definition, and everyone's ranting about these. - Thanks dude.

zaphod, you said:

Yeap, I don't like fizz either. I want to stay as far away from that as possible. I really don't understand the details of what you're talking about... the resistor changes or values - maybe in time I will. But, I don't want to forsake clarity and definition for fizz. What is the PI?

I do want more natural tube overdrive from the tubes as well. Is there any point when I do get this TC-15 to replace anything with something like Wima capacitors. SEE LINK: http://www.vintage-radio.com/images/com ... -cap10.jpg

It says:

So, basically Zaphod, I should just stick with ordering a TC-15 kit as is, then think about changing resistors during the build? So to avoid the fizz you're talking about, what would I do - just leave the build as is?

Not sure what this meant: "they're using the Vox/Matchless 1.2k value for resistor for R7, so no need to change that one to 820 ohms, if you like that tone." — Guys, thanks again, you're awesome!

_________________
—Disco Sucks—

Yes, buy the TC-15 kit and substitute the few component values that need to be different during the build, for something very close to a 65 amp.

The PI is the phase invertor, which is the 12AX7 tube just before the two EL84 power tubes. To make some sense of what I'm saying, just refer to www.trinityamps.com/ForumGallery/trinit ... _18Dec.jpg I was actually talking about R15 (not R7 sorry ), which as in many Vox and Matchless amps, is 1.2k and causes some fizz when the PI starts to break up, and hence some loss of definition. The same resistor in a Marshall 18W is 820 ohms. Just ask for those different resistor and capacitor values when you order your TC-15 kit, then get ready to enjoy some real tone!

Apart from that, amps with EL84 power tubes generally tend to have great definition. I also don't see any particular need forthose Wima caps. The caps that Trinity uses are also very high quality, but you're welcome to try the Wimas if you want.

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

Well, I didn't read all of the thread, but I think your all in the wrong direction.

Try an all mahogany P-90 guitar from the 60's. I bet you'll hear the same thing

And a Japanese version will be cheaper

We're all going in the wrong direction? What do you mean?

_________________
—Disco Sucks—