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Can anyone shed light on the interaction of the Volume and Gain controls on the Trinity 18 watt offerings?

Disclaimer: I'm operating under the assumption that the same sort of volume/master or gain/volume approach is used for all three of the Trinithy 18 watt varieties (TMB, sIII and Plexi).

1) I'm guessing that the "Gain" is sort of a preamp volume and the "Volume" is sort of a master. Is that correct?

2) Along those lines, if the Volume is set at 10 (full), does the amp then default to behaving as a non-master volume amp with the "Gain" as the traditional NMV volume knob?

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The term gain is shown on the schematics but it's not on the actual panel Stephen ships. On the schematics the Volume (gain) in the TMB channel is more of a preamp gain and the MasterVol (vol) is just that. Its's the same sort of Master used on a lot of Marshalls where you're controlling the drive to the P.I. So you could reduce the MV and crank up the gain to get that nice overdrive at less than full output.
On the other channel there is only the tone and volume. This volume is again on the i/p to the PI (the second i/p), so you cannot do the gain up vol. down thing as above.
Is that want you were asking?
Stew

I'm not exactly sure!

What I'm basically wondering is if one of the two volume knobs (volume, gain, master, whatever they're called) is at "10" if the amp functions as a "normal" NMV 18 watter. If so, which one.


e.g. My Allen Old Flame Head has a Master volume. With that knob maxed out, the amp behaves exactly as a normal old Blackface Fender would be with a single Volume knob.

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Well the Trinity 18's all have a TMB channel and a normal channel without tremelo so they are not like the original Marshall 18s. On those amps the volume of both channels was on i/p's to the phase inverter
Over on 18watt.com there is a version called Ritchies and another called JA's and they both have a gain/master setup similar to Stephens.
Don't know what Allen does in his amps.
So on 10 the master is not out of the circuit entirely but I'd prefer to let Stephen discuss that.
Stew

The 18W amps that Trinity sell don't have any Master Volume control - at least not in the true sense of the word. In the TMB channel there is a Gain control, which is exactly what it says. It alters the preamp gain of that channel. After that comes a Volume control, which sets the volume level of the TMB channel through the power amp. It's not a Master Volume control, and to refer to it as one is misleading. The Normal channel has a regular vintage style Marshall 18W preamp, which lacks any Gain control, but also has a Volume control. You use the Volume controls of each channel to adjust the output level and hence the volume levels of each channel, and relative to each other. In the case of both channels, increasing the volume level also increases power amp distortion. All 18W amps, even the original vintage Marshall ones have this Volume control on the output of each preamp channel, feeding to the phase invertor. So there isn't any MV, although some folks add one as a mod.

The Normal channel relies almost totally on the power amp for distortion, while the TMB channel can also add some extra preamp distortion (of the good kind) to the power amp distortion. The cool thing with these amps is that you can jumper the two channels together, or use an ABY box, to get a whole variety of different clean and overdriven tones.


Yes, and both are misnamed, and hence misleading. Thankfully Trinity straightened that out, at the same time as using a simpler and more foolproof layout. This is no disrespect to either Richie Hall or Jersey Aaron, who are both real awesome guys. Richie was one of the founders of the 18W community.

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, the Volume on the Trinity TMB channel is basically where the normal Volume would be on a Tremolo channel 18 (i.e. input to the PI). Is that correct?

That sort of makes the Gain control an "extra" control that doesn't exist on the classic 18 watt tremolo channel. Is that correct?

If what I just wrote is correct, and the Gain knob allows you some control you normally wouldn't have, does it replace a fixed resistor in the circuit?

Is it sort of like the situation with Fender Blackface amps that either had a Mid control or didn't have a Mid control? The ones with the Mid knob, obviously employed a pot to allow users to set the midrange roll-off. The ones without the mid knob (i.e. Bass and Treble only) simpy used a fixed resistor.

Is the Gain control on the Trinity amps sort of the same idea (i.e. Gain pot replaces a fixed resisor)?

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I don't know why I bother sometimes .
Stew

Hey you were doing great there! Kudos to you for being so helpful (as always).

Yes, it is an extra control. However, it's not replacing any fixed resistor in a classic/tremolo 18W amp. The TMB channel in the 18W TMB variant amps has two more stages in the preamp, that the classic 18W doesn't have, as well as the TMB tone controls. The TMB preamp channel of a TMB 18W, such as the Trinity models, is more like the preamp of a classic Marshall Plexi amp.

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

Thanks to all for the response. Our first 18 watt version had a panel with Vol & MV but we changed it to Gain , Vol to reflect what it was really doing. the gain does change the preamp gain and if you maxed the Vol, it would pretty well be bypassed.

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Stephen
Web: www.trinityamps.com. Facebook: facebook.com/trinityamps. Twitter: @trinityamps

I still think we should stop referring to an MV, as these amps don't actually have one, and we only get people confused. There's a separate Volume level control on each channel, which the original vintage Marshall 18Ws also have. You can still add a true post-PI MV as a mod.

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

Awesome response.

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain it in those terms. Crystal clear now!

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Is the VVR opttion better then PPIMV?
Wich of these features enables you to get the power tubes cooking at reasonable levels?
I already have a "MV" on the TMB chanel but like you said thats for the preamp tubes cooking.

Our VRM implementation (~ VVR) reduces the B+ to the amp and allows you to cook the power tubes at a lower voltage / power. you can turn it way down, but the preamp tubes start to thin out at very low volumes (As do our ears actually). you can just power scale the power tubes, and we have tried that and still prefer the whole amp. YMMV.

The PPIMV reduces the drive to the power tubes so you're not cooking the power tubes with that design, but it works very well.

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Stephen
Web: www.trinityamps.com. Facebook: facebook.com/trinityamps. Twitter: @trinityamps

Can your "VRM implementation" be instaled on every 18W circuit?

Yes, any cathode bias amp up to about 40 watts. Details in our 'GAS' forum

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Stephen
Web: www.trinityamps.com. Facebook: facebook.com/trinityamps. Twitter: @trinityamps

Coco please look at this clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cXKSfsIWQ8
Its an 18W TMB amp that has an master volume on the TMB chanel.
Normal chanel only has volume and tone.
Would VRM be possible for this kind of design since it already has na MV on one chanel?

Master volume does not affect whether or not you can use VRM/VVR/Power Scaling. MV in all of its forms can be used with voltage reduction in all of its forms.

Since the 18 watt design gets pretty much all of its distortion from the power tubes a master volume of any type will have what most people feel is a negative affect on tone. This is where voltage reduction schemes shine because they have minimal if any affect on tone.

What he said!

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Stephen
Web: www.trinityamps.com. Facebook: facebook.com/trinityamps. Twitter: @trinityamps

Ok, but you can get power tube distorsion only when cracking the amp to MAX, correct?
Instaling an VRM to this amp would enable you to have:
1) Power distorsion coming from the normal chanel at lower volumes
2.) Power and preamp distorsion for the TMB chanel at lower volumes.
Basicly this MV on the TMB chanel controls the distrsion from the preamp tubes, correct?

Any MV controls only Pre-Amp or PI distortion.
But only a VRM will lower the power at which cranked distortion ocurrs.

If you really want cranked sound at low volumes, you need to get one of our TriFly amps. 2 watts on max!

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Stephen
Web: www.trinityamps.com. Facebook: facebook.com/trinityamps. Twitter: @trinityamps