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 Post subject: TRIWATT
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:44 am 
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Holy Ghost
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Ok, I'm starting up a TRIWATT discussion over here.

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Last edited by coco on Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:45 am 
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OK, so here's the scoop so far. Yes, Phil Rowley & I have hooked up in Toronto and are jointly working on this amp. You might recognize the Zaphod Phil nickname.

Here are some Key points about our design intention for this amp:

:arrow: Preamp based on the late 60s/early 70s style 103 preamp, with the cathode-follower in front of the PI

:arrow: Three-inputs, for Normal and Bright and Link, as found in Dave Gilmour's early 70's 3-input amps

:arrow: Normal preamp cathode C+R values as in the Who's CP103 preamps

:arrow: Second stage can switch between early Hiwatt and 80s' higher gain Lead modes

:arrow: Option for Jimmy Page/SAP preamp mod, giving increased gain in traditional Hiwatt mode

:arrow: 12AT7 PI tube, as in the earlier Hiwatts, for increased drive to the power tubes

:arrow: Solid State rectification with fixed bias 22 Watt 6V6 output stage, based closely on the original Hiwatt power amp and PSU design

:arrow: Future optional upgrade to 40 watt version

:arrow: Status - Preliminary layout is complete using only one board, so it's much simpler to build than any HIWATT clone. Fits into our standard size chassis too!

We'll find out more when we've built and tested one of these amps. That's the next step. :D

Final specs here: Custom TRIWATT Lead

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Last edited by coco on Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:15 pm 
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Stephen, Great news :D :D

I really like the low/high power option :P :P
Takes care of everybody! And I'll be interested to know what tonal differences there are between the 22 and 40 watters :P

(Still hoping for the VRM :P )

And I'm real happy about the "easy to build" I'm getting things sorted to know what the winter build season will hold :D :D

Looking forward to the updates!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:44 pm 
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We're putting a VRM in the protoype! We'll see how that goes.

We're both pretty excited about the possibilities.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:08 pm 
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Killer....Will this be a kit or strictly a shop run amp?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:24 am 
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Business Details To Be Determined.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:24 am 
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Wow! That is a smartly laid out amp. I don't know if I could ask for much more. :D


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:09 am 
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How about a Big Muff and an Electric Mistress with every Triwatt® purchase :D

Joe G

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:32 pm 
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coco wrote:
We're putting a VRM in the protoype! We'll see how that goes. We're both pretty excited about the possibilities.

I think I need to clarify that point a little. This is a fixed-biased amp, just like all true Hiwatts. Therefore, it's not compatible for use with a VRM or regular VVR, since every time you change the amp's B+ voltage, you would also have to go and rebias the tubes. :shock: Yet Stephen is absolutely right when he says that we're using a VRM with the prototype, but it will be just to reduce the DC voltage by a fixed amount, while we find a more suitable PT than the one being used at the moment. Longer term, we expect to be able to use a VVR, of the kind specifically designed for use with fixed-biased amps. Most likely the VVR will be used to only regulate the power amp, since you need to run the preamp tubes at pretty high voltages to get the real deal Hiwatt sound.

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Last edited by zaphod on Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:55 pm 
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joeyvelour wrote:
How about a Big Muff and an Electric Mistress with every Triwatt® purchase :D

Joe G

Sex toys and high voltages don't mix! Trust me....I know!

Stubby


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:06 pm 
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Zaphod, that's sort of what I was expecting after reading through the 18 watt forums.

The concept is good though, I think scaling the power amp is a valuable option. Especially with something like the TRIWATT :D


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:34 pm 
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True. We will need to support the fixed bias of this amp. There are a few VVR/VRM concepts that can do this. How well we dont know yet. If we implement this, it will have to live up to the real deal sound as Zaphod pointed out. After all, that's the objective.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:05 pm 
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This is GREEEEEAAAAT news! Can't wait to hear it, although I think I'll be more interested in the 40W Triwatt.

Oh, and I'm happy to beta test without a VVR/VRM. I don't need no stinking VRM in the studio!!!! ;)

So excited about this guys... :D

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:11 am 
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I think you might be pleasantly surprised by the loudness of the regular 22W version. :D And don't forget that 20W sounds half as loud as 200W.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:15 am 
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Yep, decibels are measured in an exponential formula. The only real reason for higher wattage normally is more clean headroom, right? But since the Hiwatt is designed for a clean sound, I would suspect 22W would provide a good bit of that intrinsically - as much clean as most guitarists would normally want. But I suppose there are a good many differing opinions there... including Brent's, the "Master Purveyor of Great Sound."

Another factor re output power might be the number and type of speakers connected. Some players like the sound of a pushed speaker. Lower wattage - especially with multiple speakers - wouldn't give that so readily, if at all, I wouldn't think. There is also a noticeably different sound (or maybe it's just the room "coverage" or dispersion) with multiple speakers, as opposed to a single speaker. But I've never been able to make that single to multiple speaker comparison with the SAME amp operating at TWO different power levels, and everything else being equal. Could have with my old Mark I Boogie, with its 60/100w, but never thought to do so, and now it is sold (tired of moving around 80 lbs!).

Jim


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:59 pm 
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Kevin O'Connor would tell you that (perhaps) a 2 tube o/p section will sound slightly different than a 4 tube o/p section even if they are the same power. I think most people will tell you that a 100 Marshall and a 50 watt Marshall sound differently even when adjusted for the same "volume".
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:27 pm 
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Hey Zaphod and Jim, thanks for your input. I do understand how decibels work, and I doubt I'd be surprised at all by how loud the 22W is!! I'm certain it could make me sufficiently deaf!! LOL! But unlike most people on this board that play at home or in smallish clubs, I only use amps in the studio... and my experience recording tells me that most of my favourite recorded tones come from moving massive quantities of air. Not that I don't have any use for low-watt amps, I do (and my TC-15 is one of my favourite amps EVER!!), but for the most part, I just like the option of driving speakers hard...

And I agree with Stew/Kevin O'Connor - especially with Marshalls - that 100W and 50W sound totally different, frankly like different amps!! I had a recent experience with DSL's (not my favourite amp by any means!) where the 50W didn't yield a single usable tone IMO, but the 100W was alright, and actually gave us one amazing tone... and fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your perspective!) "big amp tone" in my experience only really comes from amps 50W and up... and just so we're clear, I'm not saying you can't get a "big" tone out of a little amp - you can - it just doesn't sound like a "big amp tone"!

With my own DR103, I happen to believe it's one of the coolest Hiwatts I've ever encountered. I run it with 2 of the output tubes pulled and IMO it's cooler than any 50W Hiwatt I've recorded... and breaks up in a different place...

Having said that, if the design of the Triwatt is optimized for the 22W version, and the 40W version is going to be a higher watt version with compromises, then I'd rather have the 22W... :) But not to worry, Triwatt production model #1 is already sold!! I'm the guy that suggested it to Stephen in the first place!!!! :wink:

As you were... B

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:07 pm 
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Sorry Jim, realized I only partially responded to your post...

I don't necessarily feel that the Hiwatt is "designed for clean sound", at least that's not how I use it! I run my mine into overdrive 90% of the time. To me that's where it sounds best. For clean, I prefer my TC, a couple of my Fenders, an old Gibson Mercury head I have, my Mesa F-50... The Hiwatt isn't a high-gain amp by any means, but an overdriven Hiwatt is a thing of incredible beauty. :D Oh and I should mention, it's also one of the best bass amps on the planet!! 8)

I have a Mesa Stiletto (and have recorded many Mesa Dual Rectos) that has the 50W/100W switch, and I flip back and forth ALL the time. Two completely different tones IMO. FWIW, I'd say 70%-80% I run 100W. Why? I guess headroom is a/the factor, but the words I'd use to describe the difference are clarity, size, urgency, authority... The vibe of the tone in the track is just better most of the time running 100W. But just to confuse the issue and contradict myself, I think the best Mesa Rectifier amp is the Single. I find that the 50W Single has more clarity and raw drive than the much fizzier (to my ears) 100W Dual Rectifier...

And yes, I do like the sound of a pushed speaker a lot of times...

I mean, there's a good reason I had Stephen build me his JTM45 before his 18W!!! :wink:

The bottom line here is that all this stuff is good in theory, but I believe you really have to evaluate these things on an amp-to-amp basis. That's why something like the TC-15 flips most of my general amp ideas upside down - it's such a well-designed and SPECIAL amp, it outperforms many amps that in theory I "should" like better, but I don't... :D

I'm convinced that this Triwatt is going to be a KILLER whatever the wattage is... I can feel it in my bones... :wink:

Hope this helps. B

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:52 pm 
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Brent, what you've shared is indeed very helpful - as always. You are a very clear writer who obviously has a deep passion for music and what makes it sound as it does. When you get some spare time, or retire :wink: from recording, you need to write your book!

Best,
Jim


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:26 pm 
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Several different issues have been mentioned here. It's very true that when you double the output power of an amp, you don't change its loudness by much, but you do change its headroom and tone. Jimi Hendrix, so we're told, is an example of someone who really used all 100W of his Marshalls to get the tone and clarity he needed for what he was doing. There's a story that when he was recording at the BBC studios in Langham Place, London, they could still hear his guitar in the building several studios away!

And then there's also the effect of moving lots of air at extremely high volume levels. Eric Johnson, for example, used to experiment with the sound of very loud pressure waves, by playing high power amps in small rooms. Now of course, his hearing is damaged, and IIRC he can no longer hear high frequencies. Such a pity for someone who used to be known for chasing the ultimate guitar tones. I'm sure that if Hendrix was still alive today, his ears would be pretty well shot too - if not his brain. :lol:

People may wonder why a 100W, running at half power or using half its power tubes, will sound different to a 50W of exactly the same family. The difference is that the 100W amp has bigger transformers, so that the amp's tone will be bigger and bolder, even when running on half the power tubes. Due to the reduced load, the voltages in the 100W amp will also tend to rise above their normal level, providing a bit more headroom than a regular 50W.

It is true that Hiwatt amps were designed somewhat like high-powered hi-fi amps for maximum loud and clean operation. Guitar amps didn't get mic'ed through the PA in those days, and so they had to hold up on their own, which made Hiwatts ideal for the job. Like Brent said, they also make great bass amps, which IMO is for the same reason. Both John Entwhistle and Roger Glover come to mind right away as big into Hiwatts for their bass rigs. But again like Brent says, Hiwatts eventually break up with a beautiful growl. If you listen to the Who much, you can hear how Townshend overdrives his Hiwatts. So our aim is to get this signature growling breakup at safe(ish) volume levels.

So with the "triwatt" (which is not the amp's official name BTW for obvious legal reasons), the aim is to produce tone and breakup characteristics that are similar to a 100W, or at least a 50W Hiwatt amp, but without causing terminal ear damage or killing small birds flying nearby. While we know scientifically, it is impossible to produce a 100% accurate clone of the same sound in a lower power amp, we still intend to get pretty darn close to it. :D

PS: My own personal "go to" amp is an 18W Lite. The sweet, grinding overdriven tones from that amp are sheer bliss!

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Last edited by zaphod on Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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