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The speaker sensitivity would certainly make a big difference. 5-6db is a pretty big jump, especially in the "guitar" range. I guess that's part of the reason the Fane's have a rep for being loud.

It's interesting. In my experience (mostly with hi-fi audio) higher sensitivity tends to result in a harsher & more in-your-face speaker. That's certainly not the case with the Fanes/clones I've heard. I've tried 4 of my amps through my Triwatt cab & it they all sound more "civilized".

I don't think I've heard a 6L6 JCM900, but that would be a factor I think. It probably is a little more laid back than the EL34 version.

I have a 2204 and a Dual Reverb JCM900 running 5881's... I'd say without actually doing an official comparison that the 900 is a bit louder than the 800 through the same cab. I'd also say that both are louder than the Triwatt by a pretty good margin... should I do tests??!!! LOL!

I'm not surprised a Boogie guy would prefer the 900 though - it's got that crazy saturated preamp gain thing happening that Boogies do. The Triwatt seems to me to be more about the combo pack of how much you blow up the preamp section combined with how much you blow up the output section... this may sound weird, but with my Boogies, I never really "hear" the power tubes break up. If you turn the MV down on the 900 it's all about the preamp section too... I don't think the Triwatt is ever entirely about it's preamp section... does this make any sense to anyone??!!

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Brent Bodrug
Producer-Engineer/Songwriter

www.slyfichapel.com

Bgroup wrote:


I was not running the Triwatt and the JCM 900 4502 Combo thru the same cab. Given if they were running through the same cab, I have no doubts the Marshall would be louder.

I ran the Marshall before with a BBQ Ceramic 50 watt Blue Dog and a Silver Bell and I remember it being a bit louder that it is with the stock G12T-75 Speakers now. The G12T-75 never seemed to be an efficent speaker, no matter what the spec's say.

The thing that impressed me is that the Triwatt (with more efficent speakers) was able to play with a 50 Watt Marshall (at similar volume settings - each master was about 1 o'clock) and maintaining better sounding cleans at that level.

Run a 50 Watt Marshall with a 4 x 12" with Vintage 30's or G12H-30's and there would be no question of the volume king.

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ROB

Yes - that makes perfect sense to me Brent, but that high gain bedroom level clip you did with the Triwatt was all about pre-amp gain! You wouldn't have been pushing the power tubes at all in that clip! Same with the crappy high gain clips I posted - MV was at 9:00 or less with those too.

But you're right about the Boogies - you never really hear the power section "break up" - at least not with a tone that sounds good. However, when you push the master the tone does thicken, and I'm sure the power section is overdriving - you just can't really hear that overdrive due to the the gobs of pre-amp gain/saturation.

Depends on the Boogie too. I'm sure a Blue Angel or Maverick is a completely different story than a Recto or DC series.

Triwatt does sound it's best when getting that blend of pre & power tube overdrive. The 2204 also, IMO, and the Boogie Mark series too - especially the Mark I & II. When that JCM900 shows up I'll give that a go and I expect more of the same. I remember it sounding a little thin until the power tubes get cookin, same as an un-modded 2204.

The only Brit amp I've tried that sounds awesome without the power stage pushed is my Laney GH100TI, but it still sounds even better when you push it (and plaster starts to crack on the walls).

Sorry for the quasi-hijack Rob! When Brent and I get to talking about this stuff things tend to get out of hand!

I would find that very surprising - for two reasons. First is the fact that while both of these amps have the same power stage, 6L6 family tubes (such as 5881s) will always deliver somewhat less power out than EL34s. In fact many 50W Marshalls have been measured with their stock EL34s giving 60W out, while 100W models have been measured to give as high as 125W - both clean! The second factor is that JCM900's typically use solid-state diodes to clip the signal, which ends up limiting the amps' dynamic range. I once helped a guy snip out the diodes from his JCM900, and he found that the amp become noticeably more lively, responsive, punchy - and loud.

Absolutely! And isn't that somewhat the point of the Triwatt in the first place...?

Yes, that makes perfect sense to me.

I'm a great believer in a good amp being able to provide both preamp and power amp distortion, with the player being able to control the mix. And this is one of the things I like about the Triwatt. It can provide both - and you get to decide how much of each you want.

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

Zaphod wrote:


I agree with that, and I think that is also useful with OD pedals also. Running a Clean Boost or a Compressor into an OD pedal with moderate gain, I think sounds better that pushing the OD pedal by itself. Now running that into your amp's preamp at moderate gain, and mixing in a little power tube saturation, and you don't have the noise factor that you have pushing a single gain stage to the limits.

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ROB

Absolutely.

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Brent Bodrug
Producer-Engineer/Songwriter

www.slyfichapel.com

You would be absolutely correct about that sir!!



Agreed... but I also find with most amps as you push the MV the tone gets better and better - hence why I run most things wide open - but on all of my boogies (maybe with the exception of my F-50) more often than not, rolling back the MV makes the tone better...



I recorded a Maverick once - nice amp. It behaved a little more like my F50, than any of my other Boogies, but they all sound like Boogies at the end of the day! Actually my Mark2c+ is pretty different too... I run that one wide open and it sounds GREAT.



Definitely the JCM900 needs to be wide open. I think part of the reason it gets slagged so much is people running it with the MV low. It's the one amp that HAS to be loud, and when it is, it's AWESOME.



ummm, er, uh, yeah, sorry...

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Brent Bodrug
Producer-Engineer/Songwriter

www.slyfichapel.com

As I said I haven't done an official comparison between my 2204 and my JCM900, but I did do extensive testing between my 2205 and my 900, and the 900 conclusively blew the 2205 out of the water, both volume-wise and tonally... maybe the 2205 was broken!! But you know what? I'll crank up the 2204/900 tomorrow and check it out and report back!!

Yeah, that IS the point of the Triwatt!! Our collective ears thank you guys!! I recently retubed and gave my DR103 the once over (btw the old OT specs out to almost 100% perfect!! YAY!) and Don the tech suggested that running the old beast with only 2 power tubes was like feeding it "junk food", so it's back to its full 100W of glory... Holy F^&$ that thing is LOOOOOUUUUUD!!!!!!!!!! It sounds UNBELIEVABLE with the Mullards and 6CA7's in there though...

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Brent Bodrug
Producer-Engineer/Songwriter

www.slyfichapel.com

Me too.

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Brent Bodrug
Producer-Engineer/Songwriter

www.slyfichapel.com

Apparently Dave Gilmour used to run a boost pedal into fuzz pedal, for a bit more edge, before sending that into the input of his Hiwatt.

That wouldn't surprise me. The 2205 is almost an entirely different amp design to the 2204, and like many JCM900s has quit a lot of solid state electronics in the signal path, which limits how hard the power stage gets driven.
Heh. Or with a pair of real EL34s in there you would be getting over 120W clean power output. Just imagine what those 200W Hiwatts must have sounded like! However, I would have said that running it with those Russian tubes it had, was more like feeding it junk food. I honestly don't see any problem at all with running the amp on a single pair of EL34s (or 6CA7s), provided you change which impedance setting you run the speakers on. Both from an electronics perspective and tonewise it's absolutely fine to do.

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

Well in looks like I might be selling my Marshall tonight. I loved those amps, but I love the Triwatt so much more. I am not swearing off Marshall Type Amps though. In the future I will want a Trinity 18 watt Plexi, of if Trinity did a JTM45 with 6V6 tubes, or better yet that could easily switch from KT66 to 6V6 tubes.

Yes I want a Triwattised version of a JTM45!

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ROB

El84/6V6/KT66 is entirely possible to do. BTW, thanks for the TRIWATT vote of confidence!!

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Stephen
Web: www.trinityamps.com. Facebook: facebook.com/trinityamps. Twitter: @trinityamps

Phil, Check out this gilmour site. It's awesome I want this for all of my rock gods. It's all about his gear and how he uses it.

http://www.gilmourish.com/

Revv23 - It's a great site.

Friday I saw this little tidbit.

David’s Hiwatt settings (2006):
bass 10:00, middle 11:00, treble 12:00, presence 1:00, normal volume 2:00, brilliant volume 1:00, master volume 11:00 (o’clock)

I spent the weekend suppressing rebellion and burning Norwalk, CT with the Royal Welch Fusiliers (Yes, I am a British Revolutionary War Reenactor), but tonight I will try them out.

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ROB

OK, so I had the chance to A-B the 2204 with my JCM900 and you're right, the 2204 is gobs louder... BUT, most of the gain on the 2204 is unusable past 5 or 6 it just gets muddier - not appreciably better sounding or gainier... of course this is with the MV wide open. You've got to give those 6CA7's another chance Phil - my DR103 sounds AMAZING right now...

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Brent Bodrug
Producer-Engineer/Songwriter

www.slyfichapel.com

That makes sense. And there are tweaks for JCM800s to fix issues like that.
That's fascinating, and also quite surprising.

Oh, I believe you alright. My comment was purely about the loudness., rather than the quality of the tone. EL34s are true pentodes and have more electrical "bounce", which means they can pump out a bit more power than their equivalent tetrodes, such as 6CA7s or KT77s. And of course your DR103 now also has RI Mullard preamp tubes, helping to make the tone sound amazing.

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Great tones come in small glass jars!

I understand where you're coming from Brent. My 2204 is much the same. However, I must throw a caveat in there. My 2204 isn't quite a stock 2204, as we're discussed previously. I've got a number of "plexi" touches in there, primarily around the presence circuit & tone stack. I've also removed 2 of the three "treble peaking" circuits (bypassed the cap/resistor network going to the pre-amp pot & the snipped the bright cap on the master pot). And I'm running 50w Plexi iron from Heyboer (their Drake clones). Not sure how much difference there is between those transformers & the JCM800 50w iron, but I can say that with the master dimed it sags/compresses quite a bit. At that point the gain does tend to just roll on more mush as you crank it up.

I also boosted the first gain stage a bit but I'm considering backing that mod out or scaling it back. I never run the gain past about 1:00 anyway and it adds more noise than I'd like. There are other places in the circuit to boost gain and I may try those. The trick with the 2204 is to find a happy gain balance because with the amp's voicing things can get out of control in a hurry.

But, in any case, it's frightfully loud.

I am getting old & and they are all to loud!

I saw my old guitar treacher, play at Toads in New Haven Yesterday, with the group "Holding Pattern". He was using a JCM 900 4100. Toads is a decent sized place, and the 100 Watt Marshall with one 4 X 12 cab. was way to loud.

What is why, I will stay with 6V6s in the Triwatt, & I am pretty sure my next build will be a Trinity 18 Plexi, unless Trinity starts making 6V6 JTM45s.

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ROB

Doubling the power output of an amp only gives a slight increase in loudness. The main difference is an increase in clean headroom. You have to increase the power by a factor of 10 to get a doubling in volume level. So the KT66 option is perfect for those who want more traditional Hiwatt style clean tones, while the 6V6s are great for those folks who want somewhat earlier breakup.

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Great tones come in small glass jars!