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ROB_PRICE
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:18 pm 
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Looking at the Triwatt Schematic, I see the component mod's for Townshend's Hiwatt. That is no problem, but I was wondering if any Hiwatt Experts know why he had them built with the four separate preamps volume controls for each input. I could see it may be useful if you a switching system for different gain levels, but I thought Townshend only would use one channel, and use the guitar's volume to adjust the preamp gain?

Any clues?

Thanks

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Revv23
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:41 am 
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Haven't looked at the schematic but I thought the inputs were linked thus meaning the volume controls were interactive even with one channel in a-la 5E3.
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ROB_PRICE
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:07 pm 
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I didn't think they linked, but I haven't seen the schematic either.

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zaphod
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:19 am 
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Townshend was a Hiwatt user from very early on, when the first Hiwatts were very similar to the Sound City amps (also designed by Dave Reeves). Like many other early guitar amps, these were designed with the idea that you could plug several instruments into the same amp, and I'm sure that many small bands on a budget probably made use of this feature, especially given their clean high power level. The inputs aren't directly linked. They all go to seperate triode inputs and combine at the output with 500k pots and 470k mixer resistors, so there's little interaction between them. IIRC Townshend would use a 4-way "Y cable" to drive all four inputs simultaneously, to get the most gain and volume from the amp. He also used a 12AX7 in the phase invertor to get more breakup.

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Revv23
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:46 pm 
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I've heard of the 4 way cable as well, but any pics of his rig ive seen on stage all have just input 1 plugged in.

I also wonder about the effect of a 4 way split on your guitar tone...
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Revv23
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:47 pm 
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http://guitargeek.com/rigview/595/

Not sure how accurate this is... don't think it is because i check the schem and zaphod appears to be right about the input not being linked
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zaphod
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:15 pm 
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Revv23 wrote:
I've heard of the 4 way cable as well, but any pics of his rig ive seen on stage all have just input 1 plugged in.

The amp featured in that link isn't the original CP103, but a DR103 amp model modified to suit Townshend's requirements. As the link says this includes disabling/removing the Mid and Presence controls and linking all the inputs together. So you would only see PT using a regular single guitar cable with one of these amps, whereas he would have used the 4-way cable with an original CP103 or Sound City amp.
Revv23 wrote:
I also wonder about the effect of a 4 way split on your guitar tone...

According to most vintage Hiwatt aficionados it sounds fantastic. They seem to think it gives more gain that way, but I'm not sure if I believe them. Some of those Hiwatt buffs even play through Hiwatt PA amps with a single guitar wired into all six inputs. :shock:

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Revv23
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:45 am 
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All CP103's and PT's SoundCity amps came without the mid and presence controls.

http://mhuss.com/php/pix.php?p=2CP103s


Also from Mhuss.com:
Quote:

Could you tell me if there were special modifications made to the amps Pete Townshend used to play? I have seen pictures of his amps and the faceplate says CUSTOM HIWATT 100 "THE WHO".Were these amps made special to Pete's requirements? Best Wishes on your Web Site.I have an early 70s DR103, what a great sound!

A. - The modified DR103 units that Pete used were,in fact, CP103 "SUPER WHO 100" models,that were made specifically for his sound and style. The key differences between the DR103 that you have, and Pete's CP103s were: *The instrument inputs were linked together and boosted by and additional 10db. *The Middle and Presence controls were "neutered" at the factory,as Pete preferred just Bass and Treble controls. *Two additional Volume controls were added to give increased gain and flexibility at both the pre and post gain stages. *The output stage of the CP103 was boosted to deliver 120 Watts R.M.S.into an 8 Ohm load. A total of 7 CP103 heads were made for Pete between 1970 and 1976.He typically used 3 at a time in his stage set-up,2 for Mains and 1 for Back-up. As was customary for their higher profile customers, HIWATT would engrave the bands name on the control faceplate.(i.e. Dave Gilmours DR103s were engraved with "PINK FLOYD"). Pete's SE4123 Cabinets,(initially he used SE4122s), were loaded with 4 specially-designed 50 Watt Fane 12" speakers that were "voiced" for an increased Bass response to complement his "PowerChord" style.


http://mhuss.com/Hiwatt/HiwattStory/index-10.html
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zaphod
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:54 pm 
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That is pretty much what I was saying.

However, these specially-customised "Super Who 100" amps aren't the same thing as the true Hiwatt CP103 amps that PT originally used. Those ones had four independent inputs, and also had no Mid or Presence controls in the first place that could be "neutered". In other words the Super Who amps were modified to approximate to something like a CP103. And the CP103s were themselves quite similar to Dave Reeves' earlier Sound City amp designs.

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Snapcase
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:21 am 
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The pictures I've seen of Pete's rigs show the three usually stacked heads (two used and one spare) using only the normal channels in the first Kinda DR103 heads. In the later CP103 and the very early Sound City One Hundred heads (L105 model) often with a Hiwatt logo but actually Sound City amps. He used the first channels only. From the pics you can tell that the other three channel volume knobs are turned fully down to zero. He is a single channel man. That about the four linked channels running linked together and all at once is just rumors.

After many research about all these early Pete's amps, my own guess is quite simplistic. I think Pete started using the new Reeves design when he got the first DR103 batch running. After a short while, Pete told the man he actually preferred the early Sound City heads he was previously using, so Reeves built some L105s in Hiwatt disguises for the Who boys. IMHO, that's all the story, myth and mystique about the special custom circuit inside the "The Who" amps. The L105 circuit almost matches the CP103. It's that simple.
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zaphod
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:32 pm 
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I can see a natural evolution between the Sound City L105 amps, then the CP103s and finally the DR103s. So the CP103s appear to be something in between a Sound City L105 and a DR. The later amps that Hiwatt supplied Townshend appear to have been DR103s modded to be somewhat like CP 103s. You may be right that Pete only ever really used the one channel. I haven't seen those pictures which show all but one volume control turned right down. I would be interested to know if they're online anywhere.

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